The climax continues in this week’s installment of the Oathbringer Reread! Walls fall, alliances tumble, and betrayals abound as the end approaches. Without further ado, let’s jump right in!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the remainder of the novel, but if you haven’t finished it by now… you’re crazy.
This week’s reread is Cosmere-spoiler-free. Read on with no fear of spoilers from other books!
We would like to remind you that, excruciating as it may be, we won’t be engaging in speculation from here on out. The beta read for Rhythm of War has begun, and we don’t want to risk letting anything slip that we shouldn’t. So if you want speculation and theorizing, y’all will have to bring it yourselves.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin, Dalinar, Jasnah, Shallan, Venli, Gawx, Szeth, Navani
WHERE: Thaylen City, both Cognitive and Physical realms
WHEN: 1174.2.8.1
Dalinar makes his way through the city as Odium’s forces begin their attack. One of the thunderclasts brings down part of the wall near Navani, and destroys the Gemstone Reserve, seeking the King’s Drop. Rysn and her guards are attacked by Fused, the Drop stolen. Odium sends Venli in to speak for him while Jasnah approaches Renarin and his corrupted spren. In Shadesmar, Adolin and Kaladin distract the Fused guarding the Oathgate while Shallan approaches, only to discover that the two giant spren guarding the gate will not let them through.
United Front
Title: Alone
The title this week is an awesome bracketing of the chapter. From the first POV, just a few paragraphs in, as Kaladin steps up to get the attention of the Fused, he can practically see their shock:
One man, alone?
Then, the very end of the chapter:
Unaided and defenseless, Dalinar Kholin stepped into the gap in the broken wall, and there faced the nightmare alone.
A: It really captures the feel of this chapter; every character seems to be facing something alone. Kaladin, alone vs. four Fused. Adolin with nothing but a harpoon, a few spren, and illusions against two Fused. Jasnah and Renarin, each facing their own personal fear. Shallan, alone, trying to persuade the Oathgate spren. Venli as Envoy with a secret Willshaper spren. Gawx, not allowed to overrule his advisors. Szeth, the only Skybreaker who thinks the humans might still be right. Navani, watching alone from the wall. Dalinar, walking alone onto the field, the only human outside the city not owned by Odium.
Heralds:
Once again, we have four Heralds heading this chapter.
Jezrien: King, patron of Windrunners, Herald of Kings, Protecting and Leading
Chana: Guard, patron of Dustbringers, Brave and Obedient
Paliah: Scholar, patron of Truthwatchers, Learned and Giving
Shalash: Artist, patron of Lightweavers, Herald of Beauty, Creative and Honest
L: Jezrien is probably here for both Kaladin and Dalinar, the former as Windrunner/protector, and the latter as leader and king. Chana could also be Kaladin/Dalinar (and Adolin), in their bravery. Paliah may be here as representative of Renarin’s “order.” As for Shalash, Shallan is here, and being particularly creative with her powers.
Icon: Double Eye of the Almighty, for multiple viewpoints as listed above.
Epigraph:
We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without a home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.
—From the Eila Stele
A: Like last week, most of what we had to say about this epigraph was brought out when we talked about the whole text a couple of months ago. Anything else we might want to say could be tainted by what we know, or don’t know, from the RoW beta read.
Thematic Thoughts
“You said God was dead.”
“A god is dead. Another won the war by right of conquest. The original masters of this land have returned, as you so aptly made metaphor, with the keys to the house. So tell me… whose law should the Skybreakers follow? That of humans, or that of the real owners of this land?”
A: This is a good argument, until you look more closely at the logic. Nale is saying that since Odium killed Honor, the ownership of Roshar has transferred— but there were two Shards who “owned” this planet, and Odium only killed one of them. What about Cultivation’s rights of ownership? According to the Eila Stele, she also was involved in telling the singers to welcome the humans; has she rescinded that? If not, the singers betrayed their god and turned to another, so… IMO, Nale’s logic breaks down and he’s not doing “justice” at all. But then, I guess he’s insane anyway. Seems to me that Cultivation needs to make her stand known one of these first days.
Rightful? Who has a right to land? Humans are always claiming things. But nobody asks the things, now do they?
L:This question is the prevailing question behind most of the book, and Nightblood’s taking it in a very interesting direction, here—especially given what we know from our little jaunts into Shadesmar, about inanimate objects here in Roshar having a sense of purpose and identity. (Also, it figures that he would take the side of the inanimate objects, given that he’s an inanimate object himself…)
Stories & Songs
A sudden feeling slammed into him.
It was focus and passion. An eager energy, a warmth, a promise of strength.
Glory.
Life.
… The Thrill was here. His old, dear friend.
A: There’s not much to say about the Thrill in this chapter, other than to note Dalinar’s feelings right here. This will come into play in the next few chapters.
These two Fused didn’t seem to be able to fly, but there was a startling grace to their motion. They slid along the stone street with no apparent effort, as if the ground were greased.
A: In Rysn’s Interlude, we saw a Fused who was clearly using some form of Lightweaving. Here, we get two who use a form of Abrasion, achieving the motion that an accomplished Edgedancer would use. (I wonder when Lift will get this movement sorted out!) Speaking of Rysn,
… the Fused attacked on palanquin among the many trying to move through the crowds. They knocked it over, shoving aside the porters, and dug inside.
… Amid the wreckage he found a young Thaylen woman alongside an elderly man who appeared to have been previously wounded…
… “The King’s Drop … a ruby. They tried to steal it before, and now, now they’ve taken it!”
A: I’m frankly quite irritated at these Fused, robbing a paraplegic and a wounded elderly man! Especially after all Rysn did to protect the gemstone in the first place.
L: I mean… they are the bad guys, so I’m not terribly surprised they’d go after a person who’s disabled and someone who’s injured. But I am frustrated that all of that hard work Rysn did to protect the Drop is undone so swiftly!
“A gemstone? Is that why we came here? A rock?”
“No,” Odium said. “That is merely a precaution, a last-minute addition I made to prevent a potential disaster.”
A: Is this Odium learning from the way Ba-Ado-Mishram was trapped, making sure they can’t do it to another of his Unmade here? Or is there something else he thought the presence of the gemstone could mess with? “Potential disaster” sounds portentous, anyway!
L: Yeah, it doesn’t seem as if just trapping an Unmade would be a potential disaster. I think there’s something more going on here, but I can’t determine what…
“The prize I claim today is far greater—even more grand than the city itself. The conduit of my freedom. The bane of Roshar.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
A: I’m reasonably certain he’s talking about Dalinar, though I still don’t get the mechanics of whatever binds him to the Rosharan system, or how Dalinar’s acceptance of Odium would end that. I can’t quite figure out whether it’s simply a matter of Dalinar leading the Thrill-controlled Sadeas soldiers to destroy Thaylen City, and if that acceptance of Odium’s rule would free him from the binding. Almost certainly, there have been plenty of humans who have accepted Odium as their god before this; why is this one different? Whatever it is, it certainly sounds ominous.
“The Alethi have turned against the Thaylens, and now seek to conquer them! They’ve been allied with the parshmen all along. Your Grace, by fleeing, we have narrowly avoided a trap!”
L: Yikes. It makes me really sad to see Odium’s plans coming through with such precision. Dalinar was played like a fiddle.
A: Yes, he was, and it’s both sad and infuriating. Taravangian thinks he’s saving humanity, and every single thing he did played right into Odium’s plan. Like… they’re the same plan, at this stage, and it’s awful to watch.
Kaladin continued out over the sea, and beads reacted to his Stormlight, rattling and surging like a wave behind him.
L: Have we seen the beads react this way to Investiture before? It’s almost like they’re attracted to it.
A: I think we saw some of that happening when they first entered Shadesmar. It only happens to Kaladin, not Shallan, though; presumably, it’s for the same reason that Shallan could use Stormlight undetected in Kholinar, while Kaladin couldn’t. Windrunners seem to be “noisier” than Lightweavers in their use.
Bruised & Broken
He’d come far in the last half year. He seemed a man distant from the one who carried bridges against Parshendi arrows. That man had welcomed death, but now—even on the bad days, when everything was cast in greys—he defied death. It could not have him, for while life was painful, life was also sweet.
A: This seems like quite a change even from the guy who needed Adolin to prod him to put one foot in front of the other when they first entered Shadesmar. It almost feels like an incongruity, except that I can attest to how rapidly the effects of depression can shift. A sudden sense of purpose, especially with the possibility of actually accomplishing that purpose, can make the despair seem far past.
L: This definitely rang very true for me, too, with my own experiences with depression. Sometimes, a definitive goal can help to pull you up out of the depths and give you purpose.
And most importantly, he had purpose.
Today, Kaladin would protect Dalinar Kholin.
A: So… is this sheer determination speaking? Does he have that much faith in Shallan’s ability to get them through the Oathgate? Is he just figuring that whatever he does here is bound to help in the other realm? Personally, I’m going with that first option.
“I have no choice.”
Really? Didn’t you tell me you spent a thousand years following the instructions of a rock?
“More than seven years, sword-nimi. And I didn’t follow the rock, but the words of the one who held it. I…”
… Had no choice?
But it had always been nothing more than a rock.
A: To be fair, he was bound by his belief system, not the rock. It was just a rock, but it symbolized the demands of his faith, which required absolute obedience to his owner. No wonder Szeth is so messed up; he keeps getting conflicting information about everything his beliefs were founded on, plus he’s living proof that whatever else may be true, he was never Truthless when he claimed the Voidbringers were returning. It was bad enough when he was owned by crooks who mostly had him killing other crooks, but Taravangian’s orders… Poor Szeth.
Places & Peoples
In a fit of rage, the titanic creature attacked the Gemstone Reserve, ripping apart its walls and innards, tossing chunks backward. A million sparkling bits of glass caught the sunlight as they fell over the city, the wall, and beyond.
Spheres and gemstones, Dalinar realized. All the wealth of Thaylenah. Scattered like leaves.
A: Well, that’s downright painful. The world’s banking system just got thrashed. Either Rysn is out of a job (because the Reserve is destroyed) or she will be exhaustively busy for the foreseeable future, helping to sort out the mess. Hopefully the records weren’t destroyed?
L: Anybody who’s left in the city, if they survive what’s to come, is probably pretty happy about it though. Imagine standing on the street and money literally raining down over you?
He was actually starting to feel like an emperor. He wasn’t embarrassed talking to the viziers and scions any longer. He understood much of what they discussed now, and didn’t jump when someone called him “Your Majesty.”
A: Poor Gawx—er, Yanagawn. He’s getting used to the role, which is pretty amazing in itself, but he sure is in an awkward position.
“All along,” Szeth said, “this world belonged to the parshmen. My people watched not for the return of an invading enemy, but for the masters of the house.”
A: Is he referring to the Shin people, and the Stone Shamans? If he is, that has some very interesting implications.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“Taln’s nails,” Adolin said as Kaladin shot upward through the sky. “The bridgeboy is really into it.”
A: Nothing significant about this, it’s just… another one of those Herald-body-part curses. Heh.
“We’ll be fine.” Adolin glanced at Pattern, Syl, and the spren of his sword. “Right, guys?”
“Mmmm,” Pattern said. “I do not like being stabbed.”
“Wise words, friend. Wise words.”
A: Heh. I love it when Adolin and Pattern interact. There’s always something funny.
L: They make a wonderful comedic duo.
“I was chosen,” Yanagawn cut in, “because nobody would shed a tear if the Assassin in White came for me! Let’s not play games, all right?”
L: This struck me as funny, but it also makes me very proud of him for sticking up for himself. Little Gawx has come a long way!
A: You know what I love about this kid? He understands exactly what’s going on, and you could scarcely blame him if he allowed himself to be treated as a figurehead: Just enjoy the trappings of wealth and do what he’s told. He doesn’t do that. He is, as near as I can tell, determined to understand the intricacies of Azish government, and to actually do the job of leading his people. He’s not trying to become a dictator or anything, but if he’s emperor, he’s going to learn how to do the things he’s ostensibly responsible for. Good for him. I look forward to seeing what he’s become by SA6!
Then there’s Lift, always good for… changing things up, and refusing to be “kept busy and distracted” by anyone:
“I was [keeping her busy], Your Grace,” Vono said. “Until she kicked mem in my spheres and stuffed me under the bed. Um, Your Grace.” Don’t right know how she moved me. She’s not real big, that one…”
A: Well, that’s Lift for you. What did they expect?
Also, “spheres”—singularly appropriate euphemism, isn’t it?
Weighty Words
Shallan wove Light.
… some soldiers from the army, people from Urithiru, and some of the spren she’d sketched on her trip.
… Shallan added an illusion of Azure to her group, then some of the Reachers she’d drawn.
… “Remember, I won’t be controlling these directly. They will make only rudimentary motions.
A: While this isn’t the first time Shallan has created independent-looking illusions, it’s certainly the most elaborate. She’s got these illusions bound to Adolin, so they follow him around, but they seem to be moving independently of his motions. It’s a little like the way she attached a Veil illusion to Pattern way back in Words of Radiance, but I can’t remember her ever doing anything more “independent” than that. Lyndsey, can you think of any?
In any case, their whole plan rests on Adolin, the spren, and those Illusions to keep two Fused distracted. Shallan desperately needs uninterrupted time to try to negotiate with the Oathgate spren. The other thing I love about this is the step up toward what she’s going to do very, very soon… but we’ll get there in a few more chapters.
They used Lashings like Kaladin did, though they didn’t seem to be able to vary their speed as much as he could. It took them longer to build up to greater Lashings, which should have made it easy to stay ahead of them.
L: I always find it interesting to point out the differences in the power usage between the Knights Radiant and the Fused! I look forward to the day when we find out why the powers work differently between them.
A: I know, right? Magic systems fascinate me.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
A spren is, Ivory said. The wrong spren is.
Renarin Kholin was a liar. He was no Truthwatcher.
That is a spren of Odium, Ivory said. Corrupted spren. But… a human, bonded to one? This thing is not.
L: Ivory has a very odd manner of speaking. At first I thought it might have been some kind of mirroring thing (the first line of dialogue is almost a palindrome), but the second section here isn’t. It’s almost Yoda-like, his odd way of speaking, and I am curious if it’s just him, something that carries over to all the spren of his type, or if there’s something deeper to these patterns that we’re just not seeing.
However… Ivory isn’t the only spren we’re seeing in this chapter.
A: There seem to be differing views on what Glys actually is. Clearly he’s been modified by Sja-anat into a new kind of spren; the question is what kind of spren he was before her attentions. Some take “a spren of Odium” to mean that he was a Voidspren; others think it’s more likely that he was a Truthwatcher spren, but made a “spren of Odium” by Sja-anat’s meddling. Either way, he seems to be a unique being, and he does enable Renarin to see things others cannot. Hence his whisper:
“No… Not Father. No, please…”
A: But we’ll talk about what he sees when he describes it to Jasnah.
L: Also just a little reminder that there have been warnings about those who “see the future” being of the enemy right from the start!
One mother-of-pearl, the other black with a variegated oily shimmer. Did they guard the Oathgate, or did they—somehow—facilitate its workings?
A: I’d like to know this, too. I would also like to know whether they really are the same “race” as other spren (the black one seems like he could be an inkspren), or whether they are unique to Oathgates.
L: The fact that they turn to look at her creeped the heck out of me. For some reason I imagined them remaining still, like statues, so the fact that they’re sapient is just… disconcerting.
The air around Venli—once crowded by the spirits of the dead—was now empty save for the single black figure of swirling smoke. She’d missed that one at first, as it was the size of a normal person. It stood near Odium, and she did not know what it represented.
A: Ladies and gentlemen, let me present… Yelig-nar. Nasty piece of work, he is. I assume that his presence here means that Aesudan was unable to control him; silly woman to think she could, but perhaps his nature is to entice people to believe they can.
L: Does this mean that Aesudan is dead, though?
A: I assume so? I’m not sure we’re actually told definitively, but given what happens to Amaram, I get the impression that if you can control him, you get to be pretty amazing… and if you can’t you’re dead.
Oh, and incidentally, those “spirits of the dead”—are they now inhabiting human bodies, or singers? I assumed it was the latter, but the text isn’t totally clear on that.
Your payment will be refused. We are locked by word of the parent.
“Your parent? Who?”
The parent is dead now.
L: Later they clarify that this is Honor.
Travel to and from Shadesmar was prohibited during the parent’s last days.
A: Am I wrong in thinking that this implies that once upon a time, before Honor’s death, it was normal to use the Oathgates to pass between Shadesmar and the Physical realm? Like, Elsecallers and Willshapers could do it from anywhere, but anyone—or at least any Radiant—could do it through the Oathgates? That has… amazing implications.
“Then why did you let those others through? The army that stood around here earlier?”
The souls of the dead? They did not need our portal. They were called by the enemy, pulled along ancient paths to waiting hosts.
L: Ancient paths? Well that is interesting.
A: And I have no clue what it means. Nada.
Also, now that you pointed out the way Ivory talks, and if all the inkspren talk that way, this is almost certainly not an inkspren; it just has one aspect of appearance that is similar.
Quality Quotations
Unaided and defenseless, Dalinar Kholin stepped into the gap in the broken wall, and there faced the nightmare alone.
Next week, we move into Chapter 117, another one of these POV-jumping chapters, as things just keep ramping up. See you in the comments!
Alice is home from the All-State Choir trip, and that concert was amazing. 300 of the best high school voices in the state, with an excellent director, makes for a stunning performance. Unfortunately, she didn’t manage to finish the Part 1 beta during the trip, but she’ll be done by the time this posts, and be on to Part 2. Wheeeee!
Lyndsey is back from KatsuCon and busy prepping for Anime Boston, where she is the Assistant Director of Programming for the Cosplay Division. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
“No,” Odium said. “That is merely a precaution, a last-minute addition I made to prevent a potential disaster.”
I *love* how Sanderson keeps pointing out that seeing the future changes the future. Had Odium left the gemstone alone, Dalinar would never have sent Szeth and Lift after it. Odium did a fantastic job here of playing himself.
This is one aspect of the book I didn’t like. Shallan’s skill with Lightweaving increased exponentially with no explanation.
Had odium left the gemstone archive alone Dalinar wouldn’t have been able to fill them with stromlight giving the radiants a way to fight
@2 I think her power up follows a more quadratic curve than exponential /s
Shallon has done things like this before. She has had illusions do prescripted actions. They have been tied to invested things. It’s just here that it’s all put together.
At one point in this chapter Odium has Venli follow him because he might need her to speak for him. Why? Does he need a translator? Or does he need something like a prophet to speak the will of the gods for the lesser singers?
Well regarding the Eila Stele, I’ve no RoW perspective and I’m calling sour grapes. Mostly on the judgement that if a contemporary Alethi were to make a valedictory monument at the current point in the storyline, it’d read much the same way- down to claim of generosity thoroughly betrayed by their King Gavilar working on returning sapience to the Parshmen and getting murdered for it.
@2, @@.-@
Also I recall from WoR a scene where Shallan is complaining to Pattern that she hasn’t figured out a feature of Lightweaving yet, and he begins to respond that she did years ago and she blanks. The girl would fit in as the protagonist from a videogame like Planescape Torment, or the first Witcher game- not so much spending her XP on new abilities as remembering old ones.
@@@@@ 2
“The Girl Who Looked Up”
A few quick thoughts:
Another logic hole in Nale’s argument besides his rather inexplicably ignoring Cultivation’s rights – maybe because he thinks that by “hiding” and not engaging in the conflict directly so far she has forfeited her ownership rights? – is that Odium himself recognized Dalinar as Honor’s heir. So, Nale’s legal argument based on “the right of conquest” among the gods, if it even deserves this description, completely falls apart. Not only is one previous owner and the heir of another still around, but Odium didn’t even conquer yet! He is still the upstart robber/usurper at this point. Ahem. I really hope that now that Odium can no longer harass him in his visions, Dalinar quickly finds a way to bring some Skybreakers in and lets a logic/legal expert argue against Nale’s position.
Concerning the Oathgate spren – my feeling was that they make a substantially less sapient impression than regular Radiant spren. And while one of them does look similar to an Inskspren, the other one is nothing like a Reacher.
It is an interesting thing with the Fused souls that “bound” themselves to the Thrilled Alethi soldiers – they do seem nothing like the Fused, nor do they use Surges at any point. And yet, Venli did confirm that they are indeed Fused souls. So, they must bind to humans in a different way than they do to singers, or, maybe the process was incomplete in some way? Yelig-nar is also interesting because it seems like it needs a human to swallow an empty gemstone for the binding.
I would think that “United” in the chapter title is meant to prefigure “I am Unity” at the climax.
I disagree. The last time that happened, all the Singers became mind-locked slaves.
She. Rysn is a she.
Sure, including Hoid … and Kaladin … and Honor, and Cultivation … and Vin … and all the Returned, including Vasher, and ….
Or maybe Hoid is just not correct, or is saying something incorrectly?
Of course, he’s neither unaided nor defenseless, this is just Navani’s reaction.
@Simpol: “At one point in this chapter Odium has Venli follow him because he might need her to speak for him. Why? Does he need a translator? Or does he need something like a prophet to speak the will of the gods for the lesser singers?”
I presume that most of the Singers can’t see or hear Odium, so if nothing else he needs a Regal to relay messages. Also, remember that the Singers soldiers are here to learn. Odium has to intend for Venli to explain the significance of what he expects them to see. After the debacle, that never happens.
I’ve got nothing really, just eagerly reading along, and now humming ‘Master of the House’ to myself…
This week I will echo @2 Austin on how fast Shallan’s capacities seem to have develop without enough narrative support. I have always expected characters evolving in a hard magic system to need training in order to learn how to master their abilities. Of course, I am mostly referring to how Shallan goes from struggling to make one single illusions without drawing support to being able to create a complex large scale army without her progression being referenced or basically every time Dalinar uses his magic to perform feats without his capacities needing either training nor understanding before being able to do the impossible.
A good comparison would be Kaladin who seems to progress through training and experimenting thus making his progression both consistent and more realistic. Now, that was good progression, but I have always felt both Shallan and Dalinar came out short on this side of the narrative.
Also this week, I will mention how irritating Kaladin’s focus on protecting Dalinar, when he is not physically there, is… I have said enough on this already, but argh, it is annoying each time I read it.
This being said, we are slowly moving into the core the last denouement, so great reviews to come!
On the side note, this is a question for the beta readers. I am just… genuinely curious. Do you guys have the right to give general opinion on what you have read so far? I mean, nothing with spoilers, of course, but just stuff like: “We all unanimously loved it” or “unexpected stuff happened and we all had various opinions on that stuff” or those sort of non-spoiler-y comments? I guess the answer is probably no because even this would be considered a spoiler, but I am just curious. I know you guys always do a non-spoiler review of the book, so I guess I was wondering if you would do a part by part non-spoiler review since you have finished part 1? I don’t mean to trespass or anything, I just noticed Brandon gave away much less insight on RoW than he did on OB, so it made me more curious as to why.
Sandra @@@@@1 and fulgriim @@@@@ 3 – I hadn’t really thought of it that way, but of course you’re right. So did Odium simply forget to look farther at the implications, or did he see what he expected to see? Because yes, without the Gemstone Reserve attack, no Kings Drop to capture Nergaoul, and no scattered gems for Dalinar to charge and give the Radiants massive reserves of Stormlight. Shot himself in the foot with that one, didn’t he?
illrede @@@@@5 – No one here is bringing any RoW perspective. Long before that beta started, I began to think that the Eila Stele is a very skewed perspective. And you’re right – the “monument of the moment” would read very differently from an Alethi perspective than it would from a Singer perspective. For all that we like to say “history will judge,” that depends on who writes the histories, doesn’t it?
Marbelcal @@@@@8 – Ooooo, good point. So in a far less stressful circumstance, she was (possibly remembering, as illrede suggests @@@@@7) sending out illusions to do some fairly remarkable things, and doing it almost unconsciously. Here, it’s very conscious and very stressful, but she does create moving illusions, only tying them to Adolin to make sure they stay where they’re needed. What she’ll do on Thaylen Field is a logical, if large, next step.
Isilel @@@@@9 – Yeah, I’m sorta confused about those Fused souls. Binding themselves to human seems a bit hinky, but we don’t see the effects we should if they bound to singers. So… I don’t get that bit.
Carl @@@@@10 – Not sure what you mean by “United” in the chapter title. The “he” referring to Rysn is definitely a typo, and I’ve now fixed it. Thanks for catching that!
Gepeto @@@@@12 – We can say stuff like “We all unanimously loved it” or “unexpected stuff happened and we all had various opinions on that stuff”, but not a lot more. At this point, having finished part 1 and still awaiting part 2, I can say that it’s much what I expected: a mix of expected and unexpected developments, various perspectives on events and characters, plenty of both agreement and disagreement from the readers. I don’t really see doing a part-by-part non-spoiler review; the schedule is pretty crunchy for that. Both part 1 and part 2 were delayed more than anticipated, so we’ll probably have less than 2 weeks per part from here on out.
@10 Yeah I thought maybe they can’t see Odium because they arn’t Invested but he appears to Taravangian later so I have no idea. Unless he is also Invested due to Nightwatcher/Cultivation shenanigans.
Ivory has a very odd manner of speaking. At first I thought it might have been some kind of mirroring thing (the first line of dialogue is almost a palindrome), but the second section here isn’t. It’s almost Yoda-like, his odd way of speaking, and I am curious if it’s just him, something that carries over to all the spren of his type, or if there’s something deeper to these patterns that we’re just not seeing.
He doesn’t ever speak in hypotheticals. This is; This thing is not; and never this should not be or this can’t
I wonder if part of distrusting those with future vision is the fact that whatever they see can be completely changed by someone acting on the knowledge which then makes the vision false.
Alice. IMO, what is important about the Thrill quote you copied in your comments is that Dalinar knew what the feeling was. I do not think he impressed it as of now; the way his younger self would have. His younger self would have embraced it to provide him with more energy. I take his comment as meaning that he recognizes his “old, dear friend”that is not the good friend to Dalinar that Dalinar once believed. Dalinar sees this friend as a user but not a giver. I think that mindset is a key as to why Dalinar can withstand the allure (perhaps more appropriately, the addiction) of the Thrill.
Alice. Just a hunch. I do not think Lift will get the handle on the gliding like Edgedancers of yore until the second five books. I think when we first see Lift in the second five books, she will be as graceful of any prior Edgedancer. We will not see her mastery of this skill in the current timeline of the 2nd 5 books. At best, we will see Lift progress in this ability during her flashback scenes. FWIIW, I also think Lift will want to be called by her birth name, which we the reader will learn is not Lift.
Any thoughts as to why Rysn’s larkin did not suck the Stormlight out of the Fused who successfully stole The King’s Drop? Speaking of The King’s Drop I hope Dalinar is going to pay the Kingdom of Thaylen for The King’s Drop. That has to be worth a lot of money. He used it to capture an Unmade and gave the ruby to his wife for her to study. I am a fan of Dalinar in the present. Yet, here Dalinar is definitely in the wrong.
Alice and Lyndsey. I think the potential disaster that Odium meant to prevent by getting possession of The King’s Drop is that the Thrill would be captured within the ruby before the Sadeas soldiers took the city and reinforcements from Urithiru.
Alice. I agree that Odium’s true prize is having Dalinar accept Odium and become Odium’s champion on Roshar.
I cannot wait to read (presumably in Book 5 which is Szeth’s book) as to how Szeth came to believe/know the Voidbringers were returning. (As an aside, if one takes the position that humanity are truly the Voindbringers, then the Voidbringers were always present. Thus, no Stone Shaman could ever be Truthless (at least Truthless in reference to the return of Voidbringers).
Alice and Lyndsey. I think the spren of the Oathgate are a spren “race” of their own. IIRC, in a later chapter, Odium says it is ok to destroy an Oathgate as long as they have the spren of the Oathgate. With the spren of the Oathgate, Odium and/or his forces can rebuild the Oathgate wherever they want. I interpret this as the Oathgate spren were created/willed themselves into existence. As such, they are a unique race of spren; not the same as any of the spren who can bond with perspective KRs.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
It was just a rock, but it symbolized the demands of his faith, which required absolute obedience to his owner.
I’m suddenly reminded of all the genie stories where the only wish that won’t get turned into something bad is to wish for the genie’s freedom, and also of the ruse Daenerys pulled on the Good Masters of Astapor when she bought the Unsullied. What would have happened if one of Szeth’s masters had either destroyed the Oathstone or used the “authority” it gave them to declare Szeth free/non-Truthless?
Alice: “Carl @10 – Not sure what you mean by “United” in the chapter title.” The chapter title is “United Front”? Of course it’s also irony, as our viewpoint characters are all isolated. Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, and Navani are not alone, but none of them are in contact with each other.
Sorry about the spelling thing. I’m sort of compulsive about that. You’re in illustrious company–I also corrected the US Navy, Crowne Plaza hotels, the Town of Huntington (New York), and the Peabody Museum. Among many others.
@Simpol, I can make a case that Taravangian is Cultivation’s Champion. He was sent visions, just as Honor sent visions to Dalinar, after all.
@13: Thanks for the insight!
I have always felt RoW had the strongest potential for being the most divisive book in the first half due to the change in both focus and structure is introduces. I will be curious to hear out what you all thought of it once the beta read is over: did you guys all like it or was it as divisive as I think it might end up being?. I had no idea the schedule was this fast. Of course, I am also dying to find out why Brandon wouldn’t tell us in which arc the regular characters were evolving: I keep on expecting some ground breaking big twist here.
@17: Events with the King’s Drop and Dalinar later suggesting they commandeer the Thaylen’s money stash are small narrative bits which makes me worry about the future or makes me remember the Kholins still have the tendency to be tyrants when it suits them. Of course, Navani talks Dalinar out of the idea, but Dalinar claims Jasnah would have seize the Thaylen’s fund to finance the army in an eye blink. I wonder if this will play into something in RoW.
@10 @13 RE: Fused possessing humans
I think this is similar to Fused becoming Thunderclasts. The disembodied souls seems to be able to bind themselves to stone alone (thunderclast), or flesh alone (humans), but only truly take over the body when they possess both (listeners with both a heart and gemheart). This could also be why Yelig-nar needs the host to swallow a gem, so there is both flesh and stone to bind itself to fully.
Just my 2c.
@7 The King’s Drop has revealed itself to be a vital military asset and they are allies in this war. This isn’t a matter of Dalinar stealing money from them. Thaylen has just as much interest in the properties of the Drop being studied as the Alethi and Navani is a recognized expert in the field.
So whole lot to cover
First, I like Nightblood’s question. What if objects did have autonomy? What about A.I.? We do have a WoB that artificial intelligence would have a present in the cognitive realm. We also have a WoB where Brandon calls Nightblood a sort of “robot spren”. These are very interesting thoughts to begin to have, especially when we know the future of the cosmere is magitech and space flight
Second, I do think Odium having his troops grab the King’s Drop was to prevent its use. He probably saw in his future sight that its use could have potentially happened. We also know that The NightMother was afraid of lightweavers, so the implication is that is the order that locked her away. So Odium would not have necessarily had to worry about Dalinar being the one to do it, to worry about it being done at all. Theoretically someone else could have.
Third, Dalinar must first agree to the contest of champions. Then Odium tries to get Dalinar to switch sides. Then Dalinar acting as the champion of honor, frees Odium. It is like playing chess, and the opponent voluntarily sacrifices his or her king. Game over.
The beads in Shadesmar are attracted to anyone using stormlight. It seems lightweavers and elsecallers can (once they learn) manipulate this. Both Shallan and Jasnah on their first times in Shadesmar nearly drowned from beads trying to devour their stormlight.
I really do love watching Gawx grow into his role, and gain confidence. I think he will make a wonderful leader.
Szeth’s comments makes me wonder if the Stone Shamanate disputed the return of the voidbringers to maintain their centralized power. Or maybe Ishar, behind Nale’s back, told them the same thing as Nale. That it isn’t happening and radiants must be stopped.
Between the powers of the voidbringers and the radiants, I am not sure which I would prefer. On one hand having near constant access to a surge/ability despite it manifesting in a lesser manner is very appealing. Flight on command, alteration, slicking, limited illusion. All sounds very cool. But on the other hand radiants get two powers, can do larger effects, just they have a more limited supply. So hard to chose!
Regarding the Oathgate I still think one is an elsecaller spren and the other is a willshaper spren. But I just cannot figure out why the willshaper spren looks different than the others we have seen.
@6: Indeed, if I remember right Dalinar almost accidentally offered to release Odium when talking about fighting him (or his champion) one on one…Dalinar at that time didn’t realize what he almost did.
@22: I always thought it was the equivalent of giving a human a gemheart, something for the spren/Unmade to reside in while inside the host.
@2 Austin
It seems Shallan’s development with her lightweaving mirrored Kaladin’s, and Lift’s development with their respective surges as they advanced in oaths. As of Way of Kings, Shallan was already at the first oath, and by midway spoke the first truth (second oath) I am terrified. By Words of Radiance she spoke the second truth (third oath) I killed my father, and at the beginning of Oathbringer Pattern made her see her third truth (fourth oath) I killed my mother. At each point Shallan’s capabilities with illusions increased.
@6 Marbelcal
I agree. Which is why it was so important that Odium get Dalinar to switch sides. It would be an immediate gameover. Odium rigged the game from the beginning.
@17 AndrewHB
Well the value of money is what we put to it. The King’s Drop before? Worth tons. The King’s Drop now? Invaluable to the war effort (holding an enemy weapon), but who would want the King’s Drop now? If you were a merchant, unless you were going to try to sell it to someone else, do you want a dangerous container that you know holds a monster within and you have no knowledge or ability to keep it there? Something tells me everyone would happily want Dalinar and Co to keep the King’s Drop and research how to keep that which is entrapped, within lol. It is like taking a suitcase of money, and then irradiating it to the point of being pure poison. Still want the money?
@18 Nina
There is a WoB for that! lol
Phantine
Let’s say some kid ended up with Szeth’s Oathstone and tried to pull an Aladdin by destroying it and freeing him.
Szeth doesn’t seem like he’d actually let himself be freed, but with the Oathstone destroyed, what does he do next (designate a new rock?)
Brandon Sanderson
Use the pieces and try to glue them back together, I’d say. If you actually completely destroyed it, it kind of depends. He might transfer the devotion to the object used to destroy it, or he might try to get another one assigned to him by his homeland–though he would have trouble convincing himself to go back.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 22, 2018)
@22 BrowncoatJayson
I agree. I think the reason the fused were able to bond the humans temporarily is because extreme emotions allow investiture to seep into people easier. Odium has been whipping them up into a frenzy to make them perfectly open for his use.
@23 John
I agree. Seriously what person would now say “Hey I want that gemstone that is radiating darkness and rage back!”. The King’s Drop is effectively a nuke right now.
@27 – Shallan may have leveled up, but she started doing things without practice.
@28: I agree. The same is true for Dalinar who literally spends zero amount of time training, and yet gets re-knit temples on a whim, spontaneously open the perpenticularity and acquire cognitive adhesion on the spot.
While some readers will agree more is not needed and the knowledge, acquired through WoB or a handful of sentences hidden in the narrative, those abilities are possible is sufficient, I do believe the lack of progression and learning curve will cause other readers to refer to it as deus ex machina. In other words, we see both of those characters perform feats which have either been unseen before, unparalleled or ahead of what readers perceive as their current skill set without seeing those characters learn nor work on those abilities. This creates a disconnect in between what some readers are expecting the characters being able to do and what the characters actually do without reading the progression which would allow the character to reach this level. And the readers to acknowledge the characters have progressed.
An equivalent would be seeing Harry Potter make a successful patronus, after vaguely hearing patronus exist, on his first attempt right in the heat of the moment. This isn’t how it happens: we see the character practice and hone this skill before it is being put into motion. So when it happens, it is consistent. Dalinar is heavily guilty on this front since thrice he pulls out a magical feat, in the heat of the moment, after vaguely hearing maybe it would work, without needing practice nor a trial run beforehand.
Shallan and Dalinar have thus litte visible progression: they suddenly are seen being able to perform magical feat we the readers did not know were possible until the characters start doing them without said characters actually needing… to acquire the skills. It far contrasts to Kaladin and Bridge 4 who we see training, we see going through a learning phase, we see work through a trial/error phase before they can get it right. Or using Shallan’s character, how her soulcasting has been broached so far: she can’t do it, but we see Jasnah trying to teach her to do it. So right here, we see a learning curve will exist.
Hence, I would argue being told: “Shallan said her fourth oath, this is why she can now effortlessly lightweave an entire army” is not sufficient to illustrate how she went from her well explained skills in WoR to her over the top skills in OB. The same reflection applies to Dalinar.
Other characters do not have this issue: the narrative tells us Renarin has been training on his side, Jasnah is plausible, we have seen Lift train with her glidding (and fail), Szeth has been intensively trained in Shinovar using the Honorblades. The problem is thus limited to Shallan’s lightweaving abilities and to Dalinar’s entire skill sets except the part where he climbs a wall.
@28 Austin
Words of Radiance page 116
“Mmmmm…” Pattern said, sounding dissatisfied. “Lies”
“I don’t know how to use the lies!” Shallan said “I haven’t practiced.”
“Yes. Yes….remember…. the time before….”
The door crunched. Dared she remember? Could she remember? A child, playing with a shimmering pattern of light….
In WoR first Shallan could only make static images. Then she learns to attach illusions to herself. Then she learns to attach moving images to Pattern. Then she learns to layer illusions, one under the other. She begins to experiment with sound, which Pattern saying she should be capable of doing so at the level she is at.
Oathbringer page 42
“Father?” A soft voice drew his attention. Renarin, who stood beside Shallan and Adolin. “You didn’t mention us. Me and Brightness SHallan. What is our task?”
“To practice” Dalinar said “Other Radiants will be coming to us, and you two will need to lead them. The knights were once our greatest weapon against the Voidbringers. They will need to be so again.”
Oathbringer page 94
Compared to that, providing spheres to her to practice her Lightweaving wasn’t a terrible expense – but she still felt guilty to see that she’d drained two of them by consuming Stormlight to help her with the chill air. She’d have to be careful about that.
Oathbringer page 98
“No” Dalinar said “Have my Radiants practice with their powers is among the most valuable resources I could purchase right now”
Oathbringer page 144
At the moment she was dressed in her nightgown; she’d change later, once she was ready to sneak out into Urithiru’s halls. She needed some practice first. Though she felt bad about the use of Stormlight when everyone else was scrimping, Dalinar had told her to train with her powers.
Oathbringer page 191
“I just need more practice” Veil said. Yes, that voice sounded excellent. Shallan was getting far better with sounds.
Oathbringer page 254
The girl who looked up scene as mentioned. Won’t type the whole thing as it is a lot to type, but Shallan does refer to it as practicing.
There is more, but the TLDR version is all the characters were practicing. Dalinar made sure everyone had the stormlight available to do so and urged them to. Just we don’t see it all on “screen”
edit: oh! almost forgot. There is also a scene where Renarin says he was trying to practice lightweaving with Shallan, but no matter how she explained it or demonstrated it, he seemed to be unable to get it. So they also did practice together.
Was looking up something separate about Bondsmiths when I came across this, which I feel is pertinent to this chapter :)
OddyFan
Did Dalinar use his Bondsmith abilities to catch Nergaoul?
Brandon Sanderson
What happened here has happened before, but a Bondsmith was involved then too. However, Dalinar’s personal connection to the Unmade was very important.
Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)
I just have to say it…Lift, getting the movement sorted out, would be Awesome!
RE: King’s Drop
Since I don’t really remember the mechanism by which The Thrill was trapped in the gem, I’m wondering if something else could have been trapped therein, such as Odium’s extended presence on Roshar (meaning whatever part of him power is manifesting on Rishar since he is still physically trapped elsewhere).
Re: Dalinar – He didn’t step into the hole in the wall completely defenseless. He was armed with that book, after all.
Re: Adolin – I grin each time I read his response to Pattern’s expressed dislike of being stabbed: “Wise words, friend. Wise words.” That guy is a joy to read.
Re: Shallan – To add to Scath@30 and his detailed list of Shallan’s evolving skill, with an emphasis on her using her illusions to “fight”:
Ch 29 vs Re-Shepir
and later in the same Chapter
She displays greater fine control of her Lightweaving throughout the Kholinar mission, but a good example of her tricking the Fused with her illusions is in Chapter 83, during the battle of Kholinar:
Shallan’s advanced display of her illusion ability in this chapter didn’t come out of left field; it’s been building this entire book
@32 Re Kings Drop:
I was thinking this might be a clue in how to defeat Odium, but how to make it work? His splinters are scattered throughout Roshar–Unmade, Fused, and voidspren. Could there be a large enough splinter of Odium somewhere on Roshar acting like a conduit for communication? Or is he orchestrating his plan from the spiritual realm? If that’s the case, they’d have to free him from the Oathpact/Braize, then when he crosses over to Roshar, somehow capture the entire shard in a HUGE gemstone. Just a theory.
Edit: Probable would take the help of other shards, as well.
I sometimes wonder if Dalinar will survive the front five.
@Marbelcal, trapping a Shard would be very difficult, but Odium himself kind of trapped two, Devotion and Dominion. First, kill the Vessel and Splinter the Shard. Then, stuff the majority of the Shard’s power into the Cognitive Realm, trapping it away from the Spiritual (which prevents it from regenerating).
Your proposed variation (what Brandon calls “hacking the magic system”) is to instead trap the Shard in the Physical Realm. My intuition is that this would work. You’d need one heck of a gemstone, as you say. How big would the gemheart of a Tai-Na be … ? Actually I’m pretty sure that still wouldn’t be enough. If Roshar itself has a gemheart (which I won’t rule out) that would do it, I guess.
@36
Ahhh! Roshar itself with a gem heart! That could be how Odium gets trapped. His hatred would probably leak out and corrupt all of Roshar. But If Odium were unable to do any more damage than that, it might be worth it to those trying to preserve the rest of the shards. In WoR Hold spoke with Dalinar. I lifted this from Coppermind.net:
“You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen. ”
How would Cultivation respond to this? Would she help to trap him and sacrifice her home for the greater good? Or, as @5 John posited in the comments for chapter 114, will she, too, become corrupted? Become the new “evil Boss” of the Cosmere?
@35
I know. :(
I can see Dalinar being needed for Odium’s entrapment. His physical self will probably be destroyed in the process, though.
@30
Words of Radiance, Chapter 47 (Feminine Wiles) also has this exchange
Shallan gathered all of her spheres—several were now dun—and set them on the seat across from her, out of reach. That wasn’t far enough, for as her Stormlight ran out, she breathed in using instincts she hadn’t realized she had. Light streamed from across the carriage and into her.
“I’m quite good at that,” Shallan said sourly, “considering how short a time I’ve been doing it.”
“Short time?” Pattern said. “But we first . . .”
She stopped listening until he was done.
@35: I have always expected Dalinar to die. He just never seemed, to me, as one of the characters who would survive nor one who would get a narrative in the second half. After OB, I felt his story was completed, I felt there was nothing more to add to Dalinar’s character apart from narrating the decisions he’ll make and explaining how he performs the magic he’ll be doing for the first half to be completed. In terms of inner growth and development, I have always felt… this was it.
In other words, Dalinar is a character I felt, after OB, was completed, finished. Other characters seem like they still have things to deal with, demons to chase, but Dalinar, Dalinar seems to have reached the place where he needed to be to do whatever it is he’ll need to do next. Sure, there might still be conflict with his family, but Brandon has been very reluctant to go there in the past, so I doubt he will in the future.
Hence, when Brandon said Dalinar was getting a smaller role in RoW, it seemed to confirm my thoughts: this was it. The character is mature, completed, and no longer has enough inner turmoils to carry on a main focus. He’ll have more page time in book 5 because his faith is tied to the ending of the series, but the bulk of his growth has already happened.
@@@@@ 38 Marbelcal, 40 Gepeto:
I mean the obvious transition is the Dalinar will ascend to become the new Honor. In Mistborn, Preservation sacrificed himself (his mind) to trap Ruin. I would imagine that Honor did something of the same nature – this contest of champions – and that Dalinar will do the same. That would pretty much leave him unable to “interfere” with whatever future events come up.
@41: I agree, but I will admit I find this denouement a tad… predictable? While I loved the conclusion of Mistborn Era 1 and I thought it worked perfectly with this series, I find the foreshadowing for SA to end in a very similar manner a little bit… lack-luster? In other words, I question myself on how interesting I am in reading more of Dalinar if his narrative to follow such a predictable trajectory, especially since it has been announced when there still are two more books to read. I mean, it is OK for character arcs to have some level of predictability, but Dalinar’s entire arc will be the conclusion of the series. As a result, the knowledge he will most certainly Ascend and trap Odium in one manner or the other seems… predictable?
This may be why I keep on rooting for SA not to end with Dalinar reforging or reuniting Shards. I might be alone in there, but I don’t really want to know how the series end half-way through it. I want to be… surprised and Brandon is usually good at surprising his readers.
Is it possible he reforges shards but dies before he can pick them up? that he has to pass his Journey on to someone else to continue and hope they do a better job then he did?
I love Lift so much.
That’s an unusual sentence.
A (seeming) betrayal by the Alethi is a sign that you’re in “the end of days”? :-p
What if Cultivation picks up Odium’s shard after he’s defeated? Preservation and Ruin combined to make Harmony, would Cultivation and Odium make Discord? Then there would two opposing double shards.
@42 Gepeto: What if Adolin is the one to ascend to Honor? He seems more fit for it.
@45 – You just made me think of something. Ruin and Preservation were seen as perfect opposites. But now that I think about it…Ruin is about destruction. Preservation is about preserving what’s already created. But wouldn’t Cultivation, the power of making things grow, be the opposite of Ruin? Or even Preservation? Both of those seem like a better opposite to Cultivation rather than each other. I don’t see Cultivation (growth) and Odium (hatred/extreme passion) as opposites.
@46: Now I’m thinking about the framing in Hinduism (and probably elsewhere) of creation, preservation, and destruction as revered cosmic forces that together keep the universe running, not binary opposites or enemies forever fighting for supremacy. In my very limited knowledge of it, that is.
@47 Well, that actually fits pretty well with Mistborn as it was revealed that Preservation and Ruin together participated in creation of not only Scadrial itself, but humanity on that planet.
@46 I think that Preservation – taken to the extreme – is indeed opposed to Cultivation. As is Ruin. But, I still think they are pretty good opposites, too. To protect or destroy are pretty diametrically opposed. (see Kaladin’s father’s point of view about surgeons vs soldiers) Not saying they are perfect opposites -hence Kaladin’s hope/belief that one can destroy in order to protect and that those shards could work together to create or “harmonize” – but they are pretty good opposites.
@45: Adolin? Nah. He doesn’t follow Honor. His actions against Sadeas have shown he does not value honor above all: he will act dishonorably if he thinks it is needed to protect the ones he loves.
@47 @48 Ruin and Preservation actually remind me of the Yin and Yang of Taoism
@BenW, and spren are clearly Chinese shen, the personified supernatural forces of the world, from tree-spirits to gods. Brandon has made it very clear there are lots of East Asian influences in his work.
Mind you, Preservation and Ruin also owe something to Western dualist ideas, especially the German philosophers’ thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Two ideas which are opposed at a superficial level can be combined in a creative way to produce a new, more incisive concept. In an analogy to this, Ruin and Preservation can only create by joining together. (The implication is that Sazed as Harmony can create planets, by the way, once he gets good at using the powers and once Trell stops attacking him.)
@carl. thanks for the insight I missed that one. Honestly it was the fact that the follwers of Harmony called themselves Pathians that twiged (am I using that word right?) me on to the whole possible inspiration from Toaism thing since at least one translation of Tao is the “Way”
Edit: I didn’t pick up on the German part. The spren as Kami (Japanese shinto philosophy which is similar to the Chinese one you mention) is something I had read about
@BenW, I may have been influenced by the fact that Brandon’s chief assistant, Peter Ahlstrom, is by training a linguist. If I know about the shen of China, I have to assume that Peter does.
@53 I can link you to a Wob from the arcanum
link 1
link 2
edited for spelling